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1. Han-geul / 한글

The informatin here will be added in the wikipedia article WikiPedia:Han-geul .

1.1. Han-geul Design & Phonetics / 한글 디자인 & 음운론

Mostly answered on 엉망. Feel free to add to the replies already existent, but write the additional answers here, please. Thanks. -- Menchi, 2003년 5월

Han-geul Jamo and Blocks

Hi saox, I'd like to add the following info on WikiPedia:Han-geul:
  1. The additional jamo include ·, ㆆ and ㆁ. [http] Can you tell from the following brief articles what their original pronunciations were?
    1. ㆆ (yeorinhieuh) [http]
    2. Does ㆁ (yesieung) [http] pronounce as "ng"? This is apparently a different jamo from ㅇ (ieung), which is rounder than the oval ㆁ.
    3. ·: Does it pronounce exactly like eo? Eo also has an IPA(WikiPedia:International_Phonetic_Alphabet) symbol of .
      1. What is · called?
  2. What is Han-geul "block" called in Korean (in Han-geul and Hanja)? Do Koreans distinguish it from "syllable" (음절 ; 音節 eumjeol)?
  3. What is the minimum and maximum amount of jamo in a Han-geul block? (I found a full table [http]here, but there are so many.)
    1. Is just one consonant jamo considered a block?
  4. Do you know what the Hanja of Ju Sikyeong, the name-coiner of "Han-geul" are? I assume Ju is 朱. Born Chu Sangho, he lived from 1876-1914.
Gomawo. --Menchi 13:00 18 May 2003 (UTC)
노스모키안 여러분 도와주세요.

대만계 분이 영문 WikiPediaWikiPedia:King_Sejong_the_Great, WikiPedia:Hangul같은 페이지를 만들고 계시는군요. 이 분은 야후 article을 읽고 설명해 달라고 하셨지만 그렇게만으로는 설명이 안 되는군요. 일단 제가 찾아보고 이해한 부분을 써 보겠습니다. 잘못된 부분은 얼마든지 고쳐 주십시오. --PuzzletChung

  1. ·(아래아), ㆆ(된이응)과 ㆁ(옛이응)은 현재 쓰이지 않고 있으며 옛 자모로 불립니다. 우리는 훈민정음과 옛글을 보고 그 발음을 추측해 볼 수밖에 없습니다.
    Nowadays jamos ·, ㆆ and ㆁ are called something like "obsolete" jamos since they are not being used anymore. We can only presume their pronounciations from Hunmin jeong-eum and other ancient writings.
    1. ㆆ(여린히읗 혹은 된이응)은 그 이름이 말하듯 ㅇ보다 굵고 ㅎ보다 여린 소리가 날 것입니다. 훈민정음에서는 이를 ㄱ과 ㅋ처럼 아음牙音으로 분류하고 있습니다. 훈민정음에서는 "수렵"의 獵 자의 초성이라고 하고 있습니다.
      The meaning of the name of ㆆ (yeorinhieuh여린히읗; or 된이응 as the article says) is "light hieugh" or "doubled ieung," so it may be pronounced lighter than ㅎ and harsher than ㅇ. But it is rather classified as a "velar consonant" like ㄱ and ㅋ by Hunmin jeong-eum.
    2. 옛이응은 ㅇ보다도 여린 소리가 났었을 것입니다. 너무 여려서 article에서 말하기를 초성에서는 거의 쓰이지 않았다고 합니다. 종성으로 주로 쓰였다고 하는데 현재는 ㅇ이 그 자리를 대체하고 있습니다. 받힘으로 쓰였을 때 ㅇ은 비음鼻音이지만 옛이응은 후음喉音이라는 차이가 있습니다.
      ㆁ (yesieung옛이응 yetieung이 맞지 않을까요?) might sound rather lighter than ㅇ; so light that article says that it was rarely used as the first consonant of a block. It was usually used in the place of the last consonant, which ㅇ has been replaced in. But two are different because ㆁ is glottal while ㅇ is nasal, when placed as the last consonant of a syllable.
  2. 아래아 발음은 어떻게 하죠? AnswerMe
    • The name of the vowel "ㆍ" is arae-a &Ah Ray Ah&. Combined with "ㅣ" it can form "ㆎ" (area-ae &Ah Ray Aey&).
    • 아래아는 'ㅏ'와 'ㅗ' 사이 소리라고 생각하면 쉽습니다. 가장 울리는 소리죠. 고등학교 다닐 때 문학 선생님께서 입모양을 'ㅗ'로 하고 'ㅏ' 소리를 내면 된다고 (그 반대였나?) 말씀하셨던 기억이 납니다. 지금은 제주도 사람만 온전히 알아듣고 소리낼 수 있습니다. 아래아는 현대에 와서 'ㅏ'로 소리를 내는데, 요즘 제주도 젊은 층은 'ㅗ'에 더 가깝게 받아들여 아예 'ㅗ'로 소리를 낼 때가 많습니다. 아래아가 들어간 이름을 영문으로 나타낼 때 'o'로 쓰려고 하더군요. 지금도 제주시에 'ㄱ.으니ㅁ.ㄹ.'라는 이름이 써져있는 버스 정류장이 있습니다. -- 까비

  3. WikiPedia:Hangul에서 말하는 "block"이란 한글의 한 글자를 말하는 것 같습니다. 현재는 한 "block"에 다음 몇 가지의 자모만 쓰이고 있습니다. 하지만 예전에는 ㅄ 받힘과 초성의 ㄷ이 겹치면 받힘을 없애고 ㄷ을 ㅵ으로 고쳐 쓰는 등 문법이 복잡했기 때문에 이렇게 쓰는 것으로 알고 있습니다. 발음은 "ㅄ 받힘 - 초성 ㄷ" 일 때와 같습니다. OrICouldBeWrong. 받힘으로 쓰일 때 ㅄ, ㄼ 등도 문법에서 온 것입니다.
    Nowadays many combinations of jamos in a block become extinct but only following are being used:
    • First consonant: ㄱ ㄲ ㄴ ㄷ ㄸ ㄹ ㅁ ㅂ ㅃ ㅅ ㅆ ㅇ ㅈ ㅉ ㅊ ㅋ ㅌ ㅍ ㅎ
    • Vowel: ㅏ ㅐ ㅑ ㅒ ㅓ ㅔ ㅕ ㅖ ㅗ ㅘ ㅙ ㅚ ㅛ ㅜ ㅝ ㅞ ㅟ ㅠ ㅡ ㅢ ㅣ
    • Last consonant: ㄱ ㄲ ㄳ ㄴ ㄵ ㄶ ㄷ ㄹ ㄺ ㄻ ㄼ ㄽ ㄾ ㄿ ㅀ ㅁ ㅂ ㅄ ㅅ ㅆ ㅇ ㅈ ㅊ ㅋ ㅌ ㅍ ㅎ
    All the "combinations," except just "doubled consonants," (ㄲ ㄸ ㅃ ㅆ ㅉ,) has originated from 동사의 시제 변화. (라고 설명하는 게 맞을까요?) Their phonetics, guided by some complicated rule, is same as a single consonant are pronounciated. More complicated combinations used a century ago are not more than a grammatic origination (e.g. ㅵ is the combination of a last consonant ㅄ and a consonant ㄷ.)
  4. Ju Sikyeong's name in Hanja is 周時經, in the Korean charset.

Thank you, PuzzletChung. I have included info you've provided into WikiPedia:Han-geul, which has 6 sections now. But you seemed to have missed question # 2, on block versus syllable.
Using the Hanja, I found some info on Ju Si-gyeong in Chinese, so I could wrote an article WikiPedia:Ju_Si-gyeong.
I have a few questions unrelated to Korea, but about the operations of this website. Could you lend me a hand? -- Menchi

{{|옛이응의 발음은 정확히 받침 'ㅇ'과 같습니다. (영어의 /ng/) 당연히 초성에는 올 수 없는 발음이죠. 훈민정음 당시에 이응은 받침 자리가 비어 있다는 용도로 사용되었죠. 초성에서 음가 없는 'ㅇ'이 사용되었던 것처럼요. 그러다가 나중에 음가 없는 받침은 아예 적지 않고, 음가 ng는 그냥 이응으로 적게 된 겁니다. 이 페이지에 몇몇 카더라성 정보가 보이네요. --아무개
Translation: ㆁ(옛이응) do have pronounciation; it was supposed to be pronounced as exactly as ㅇ placed as the last consonant; therefore unable to be spoken as -- nor be written at -- the first consonant. It was ㅇ that didn't have prnounciation, just playing a role of placer at the first consonant. At the present, ㅇ replaced ㆁ's position. And they got rid of the last consonant placer.

1.2. Han-geul syllabic block / 한글 "덩어리"

Several jamo combine into a square block to represent a 음절. What is a Han-geul "square block" called?
But maybe Koreans do not call the combined product a "square block". If so, what is the usual name? -- Menchi, June 9, 2003
I have no idea on this. Koreans call it as what we call "letter" for a single alphabet of English. The concept of "square block" is a convinient way to explain to the strangers the system of combining. Actually, I have never heard of it until you mentioned about the "block." --PuzzletChung

"Syllabic block"? In Hanja, 字. It is called just "letter". Jamo are jamo, not letters. Since they are just "letters", Koreans don't have special name for it. --서상현

Well, we usally call it "자(字)" that means "a letter" as 서상현 said. And there're more academic expression "음절", 音節 sound unit, or sound block. This may be used in phonetics, phonology and etc. And different from English, one Han-geul letter is exactly mapped to one syllable, "음절". The concept of "square block" is also occured in Chinese letter, Hanja. For example, 日(Sun) + 月(Moon) -> 明(lighten?) and 田(field) + 力(power) -> 男(man, male). But the combination(or maybe composition) rule of the letters in Hanja is not so regular compared with Han-geul. --daybreak

1.3. Han-geul jamo / 한글 자모

(For WikiPedia:Han-geul)

The Han-geul was created scientifically. But, is are the following things
1) Order

I do not see any phonetic pattern to the jamo of Hangul, except that the derived jamo are placed after the sources. Why did Choi Sejin arrange them that way?

2) Names

a) They vowel jamo's just the pronunciation . How about the basic jamo's names? The names incorporate the sound at the beginning, occasionally the end. And there seems to be some symmetry.

For example, nieun, giyeok

But what about the parts in the middle? Do things like ieu and iyeo have any significance?

yes, as u noticed, to make the jamo and the derived jamo the same, and to make them occurred in the same squared block, and as well to make the very blocked letter to be pronounced easily but not to be forced hard in pronoucing it, ieu(=:iyeo, iyo, yo, etc) was choosed as its middle syllabic. Someone will provide more academic information on this. --안형진 2003-06-11 21:30:51

b) Where can I find their names in Han-geul online? refer to this site which is the best source i've found and <- this is its parent page. you could listen to the pronunciations of each jamo. --안형진 2003-06-11 21:44:24

-- Menchi, 2003년 6월 6일 (金)
Translation: 가나다 순은 어떻게 생겨났나요? --PuzzletChung

1) Why he did like that? I don't know.

Jamo means 'the consonant and the vowel.' 'Ja' means the consonant, and 'Mo' means the vowel.

Please see the next image

"ㅣ 으" are ieu ( i + eu)

Put two same consonants in the blue boxes. (like this 니은, 미음) That is consonant Jamo's name. For example, ni-eun (ㄴ), mi-eum (ㅁ)

But this rule have three exceptions. - gi-yeok (ㄱ, 기역), di-geod(t) (ㄷ, 디귿), and si-od(t) (ㅅ, 시옷) Because, there is no Hanja that has i-eo pronuncication like gi-eok, di-eod, si-eos. Choi Sejin used WikiPedia:Hanja 's pronunciation to explain Jamo's pronunciation.

b) Did you mean Jamo's name? I already explained that rule to you.

So Choi Sejin named them so they could be written in Hanja? Were they officially written, in addition to in Han-geul, in specific Hanja, or any Hanja by the same sound? --Menchi, June 9, 2003

Complete names of 14 basic consonants are: 기역,니은,디귿,리을,미음,비읍,시옷,이응,지읒,치읓,키읔,티읕,피읖,히읗, for ㄱㄴㄷㄹㅁㅂㅅㅇㅈㅊㅋㅌㅍㅎ respectively. As ChatMate explained, all the names are maded by the rule x+"ㅣ"+"으"+x, with three exceptions 기역,디귿, and 시옷; they are named so for the convinience of calling them. --PuzzletChung

Thanks for the name. --Menchi, June 9, 2003

The order of jamos we currently use are known to be introduced for the first time in 훈몽자회(訓蒙字會) written in 1527 by Choi Sejin(최세진崔世珍).
He arranged consonants based on the order of ㄱㄴㅁㅇㅅ, the basic consonants in order of appearance in Hunmin jeong-eum. The eight consonants allowed to be used as the last consonant by Hunmin jeong-eum, ("ㄱㆁㄷㄴㅂㅁㅅㄹ八字可足用也,") and most frequent and important, are arranged at the head, based on the order of the basic consonants. ㄷㄹ derived from ㄴ so come after ㄴ; ㅂ derived from ㅁ so comes after ㅁ; and so on. So we have ㄱㄴㄷㄹㅁㅂㅅㅇ. The rest are arranged in the same way; ㅋ derived from ㄱ so comes right after the "eights;" ㅌ derived from ㄴ so comes next; and so on. It's how now we have ㄱㄴㄷㄹㅁㅂㅅㅇㅈㅊㅋㅌㅍㅎ.
Oh, I didn't explain for ㅈ and ㅊ. ㅈ once came right after ㅅ but because of the eight consonants having to come first, re-placed after ㅇ. And the derivative ㅊ comes after. It makes sense it doesn't go like ㅋㅌㅍㅈㅊㅎ, when thinking of only ㅋㅌㅍㅊㅎ are harsh sound while ㅈ is somewhat milder.
For the vowels, he set up the basis ㅏㅓㅗㅜㅡㅣ and put ㅑㅕㅛㅠ after their parents. (ㅑ derived from ㅏ,... so on.)

The book also has the explaination why there are three exceptions of consonants' names. When Hangeul was originally built up, they had to give Hanja superscription for every "Hangeul block," to give its pronounciation. However, there was no Hanja letter pronounced "윽,읃,읏" by Korean, so he substituted them with "역,귿,옷."

What a research to answer this! :)

1.4. Jamo ieung / 자음 ㅇ

(For WikiPedia:Han-geul)

Why is ㅇ placed at the beginning of a word that starts with a vowel? This makes vowel in writing always a medial, never an initial, like it often is in speech. Apparently it has no phonetic function (as an initial). I have read that it's supposed to preserve the structure of the block as a square. Is that the whole truth?

-- Menchi, 2003년 6월 8일 (日) 01:31

Apparently it has no phonetic function (as an initial)
When ㅇ is placed at the beginning of a word that starts with a vowel, that has no phonetic function in modern Korean. (You are right)
I have read that it's supposed to preserve the structure of the block as a square. Is that the whole truth?
That is true but not the whole

Each Hangeul characters have three parts.
1) consonant(s) before the vowel(s) in a syllable
2) vowels
3) consonant(s) after the vowel(s) in a syllable|}}
(Two consonants and one vowel made one Han-geul character. Vowel is always placed medial)
ex) ( ㅅ ㅏ ㄴ )

Han-geul was made in 1443. In those days, we must observe this 'three parts rule'. Please see the next image

Left letter's pronunciation is 'ng' (but this letter is not used in mordern Korean) And right letter has no pronunciation in those days. Right letter is just for that 'three parts rule'. (but in mordern Korean, right letter has 'ng' when it placed after vowel) We couldn't omit any one of three parts in those days.
ex) We must have written "" for pronunciation i in those days. (both of 'ㅇ' had no pronunciation)
Sometimes consonant(s) after the vowel(s) in a syllable could be omitted in morden Korean, but still consonant(s) before the vowel(s) in a syllable couldn't.
ex) Now we write "" for pronunciation i in mordern korean.

I said 'Three parts rules', but those are not usual words. I made that words Just for explaining.

영어를 잘 하시거나 잘 설명하실 수 있는 분이 제대로 설명해주세요. 한번 이야기를 나눠보고 싶어서 글을 적긴 했는데, 영어가 너무 엉망이네요. :(

Maybe you are understanding about it correctly, Menchi. ㅇ placed as the first consonant is just a placeholder. But omitting it could unease reading and would break the law that a letter block should be consist of at least one consonants and one vowel. By the time Hangeul was originated the law was stricter than today so that there was a placeholder also at the last consonant, (maybe ㆆ), as ChatMate tried to explain above. --PuzzletChung

Follow-up Qs:
  1. How would not having ㅇ making the syllable to have an "unease reading"?
  2. So the archaic pronunciation ㆆ is ambiguous? Being both eu and eung?
    -- Menchi, June 9, 2003

1. How would not having ㅇ making the syllable to have an "unease reading"?

For one instance, this would make more inconsistency in the visual forms. It'd take more time to read. More processing on the reader's brain; maybe less work on the writers hand, though.

Han-geul is a system. It is based on philosophical as well as pragmatic principles. You have to understand the former part. You might know of Yin-Yang and Five Elements already. We have the Three Things as well: the Heaven, the Earth, and the Man. The three part rule as described by someone else here, is based on the Three Things. There are a lot more philosophy in Han-geul.

More practical reason is that one would expect every letter to have one consonant and one vowel at the correct places, when he/she read a passage. Hence a placeholder is needed when any consonant is needed. One would say, "what if they expect another 'last consonant' too, for each letter?" There is specially designed fonts (탈네모틀글꼴) for it, in which letters with last consonant occupy vertically extended blocks. See gif pictures of this page: And the explanation is here: NotFound

ㆆ is considered not more than just another consonant. Also, ㅎ is often written like the combination of ㅗ and ㅇ, (like the gif's of the link above I cited.) But if it is placed at the correct place of the "square block," no one would be confused because there is the vowel at where vowel should be placed.

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